Tradition, marriage, and surnames

[jackofallgeeks]

Names have always fascinated me. I can't really express how, I'm just really curious about what people call each other, what people call themselves, and why. For example, I call myself Andrew; not just when I introduce myself, but in my inner monologue and whenever I think about myself -- I'm Andrew. Some people, particularly family, call me Andy; it's what I was called as a kid, and part of my thinks that my shift to Andrew was a means for me to move away from "childish things." Not that I dislike the name Andy; sometimes it irritates me when certain people call me by it, but only because I think of it as a rather familiar name, reserved for family and particularly intimate friends. I loath the name Drew. I don't really know why. I'm decidedly not Drew, and I've actually taken offense at being called by Drew, like a knee-jerk reaction.

Because of all the above, I'm always interested in what people call themselves. Sometimes they'll say they don't have a preference, but that's not really what I'm asking: not what do you want others to call you, but what do you call yourself? Sometimes people can be almost-comically particular, like distinguishing between 'Lezlie' and 'Leslie' (I should learn the phonetic alphabet), or a pair of girls both named Jessica who are vehemently Jessi or Jesse, respectively. (No offense meant, of course, to Leslie, Jessi, or Jesse. As noted, I'm particular, too -- a name is nothing to take lightly.)

Names used to have meaning -- I say used to because generally they aren't taken for their meaning. Aside from almost-absurd names like Chastity, Charity, and Hope which are recognized more as words than as names, no one's even cognizant of what most names mean. "Andrew" allegedly comes from a word meaning "Protector" or "Manly." While I'm vague, really, on what's meant by "manly," I do like to think that 'protector' fits me pretty well, and the connection intrigues me. Kind of like how people expect a certain something from names -- given evidence by lines like, "funny, you don't strike me as a 'Kate'" or "ever Nick I've ever known was a real jerk." Or how both my friend Beth and my sister Beth both sucked their two middle fingers as babies. Coincidence? Maybe.

Anyways, I've gone off on a tangent. I meant to talk about Surnames, which now have less and once had more meaning than given names. "Portner" allegedly comes from a German word for a gate guard, or something. It was a profession, like weaver, smith, potter. I always liked northern surnames like Jacobson and O'Henry, patronymics that quite literally said who's kid you were. And then there were epithets, like The Red and Blackbeard and stuff. Really meaningful things. Surnames don't mean as much any more, or at least don't mean nearly the same thing: before, Jacob O'Henry and Stephen Jacobson could have been father and son (well, maybe not those names exactly, but you get my point). Now if you're related, odds are you share a surname, or at least one of your ancestors did. (In my family, Portner, Gigioli, Mock, and Fernandez are all related, so it's a weak link at best...)

But here I get to my point. See, I'm a traditional sort of guy, and traditionally when a guy and girl gets married, she would take his surname. Now, this all comes from a long line of patriarchal societies, where the wife would literally join her husband's family, and there were dowry and lines of succession and heirs to determine and all that. If it's your thing, you're free to rage about the injustice of it all. For me, I've always been kind of jealous of girls for having the opportunity to change their names and, in a real way, redefine themselves. As a man in our society, traditionally speaking of course, that's not an option for me. I will ever and always be Andrew Portner, for better or for worse. Not that I'm particularly looking to ditch my name -- I love the family it connects me to and, if nothing else, I have the utmost admiration for my father. I'm just saying, girls can change their names and boys can't. Traditionally.

Now, not everyone it traditional. I'd say 'particularly these days,' but I imagine there were non-traditional people in times gone by; I don't think society can survive without them, really. But these days, not only could I go through the paperwork and get my name legally changed, but a good handful of couples (I don't think they're a majority yet, or necessarily a significant portion, but I don't know numbers, either) are toying with their surnames when they get married. I've never been a fan of hyphenating surnames -- it's just not aesthetically pleasing to me -- but apparently some people have taken to mashing their surnames together Smith and Johnson become 'Smithson' or whatever), or forming their name wholecloth (presumably to signify something particularly important to the both of them). And it only stands to reason that their are men out there taking their wives' surnames.

So, I'm curious what you all think of this. At least in theory -- like I said, I don't think any of this is a particularly common practice yet. So, are people who mash their names together just being silly? Are couples who make up a new surname (or take someone else's entirely) being presumptuous? Is a man who takes his wife's name particularly weak, or she particularly hard-lined feminist? Should we all just stick to the traditional way of taking the man's name, because it makes sense? How much do you really hate hyphenated surnames?

I was going to put up a poll to make it easy on you all, but I couldn't find a tractable way to phrase the question(s). So, please tell me what you're thinking in a comment. Especially if you've made it through all my rambling, as I don't expect many will.

Comments

[uhlrik.livejournal.com]

It's mostly a cultural thing. Numerous societies that use surnames don't have the woman change hers upon marriage (Korea, for example). In America, the only men that I've known that took their female SO's surname were trying to cut themselves off from their birth families and former identity and that was a part of the process. Plus in at least one of those cases the guy was being totally dominated by his nasty harridan and her family.

Myself, I prefer the lady-takes-guy's-name thing, but it's not set in stone for me. I leave the option open. My wife didn't take my name for over 2 years after we were married. Plus, her reason for finally taking it was mostly bureaucratic.

The hyphenated thing tends to be cumbersome. I dislike cumbersome. The mashed-together names tend to be ugly and silly sounding. I don't like ugly names, plus I tend to disliek the disconnect with prior generations that I feel there. So there you have it.

[dikaiosunh.livejournal.com]

To add to uhlrik's line, even the perception that concatenated surnames are cumbersome is somewhat culturally bound. I always, e.g., though that old Spanish nobility surnames, where you'll be, like, Orlando Montoya y Gasset y Rodriguez y Vasco de Gama or some such - the surname is almost like a mini-geneaology - were sort of cool.

That said, M and I kept our original surnames when we got married. We saw no particular reason to change them, especially since M already had a professional identity under hers (lobbying credentials, etc.) that would have been a pain in the ass to change (not only formally, but making sure all her contacts knew that yes, that M.L. was really the same person as the M.S. they'd known). We plan to hyphenate our child(ren)'s name(s). We figure they'll be smart enough to deal with a couple extra syllables, and they can change it later if they really hate it.

Re: envy of women changing their names... of course, in "traditional" society, it wasn't an *opportunity* for re-definition; it was enforced. A less tradition-bound society doesn't take any opportunities away from women who may still want to take their husbands' names.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Re: envy of women -- Well, depending on where we're aiming out gage for 'traditional,' it was an opportunity. In the modern era at least women weren't *forced* to be married. And while I'll concede that if marriage was in their plans they had little choice on the name thing, my point was less of a positive for women (they can change their name) and more of a negative for men (they can't). You're right, though; a less-traditional society would have the 'best of both worlds' in this case. But I'm not sure that we really live in such a society (or, at least, the society I'm familiar with isn't such a society) and so I still envy women, for what it's worth (very little, I imagine).

Names

[xenu.livejournal.com]

It's never even been a question to me. Marriage is about compromise, but it's also about love and respect and retaining your individuality (for me) and my name is an integral part of who I am. The right life-partner would understand that.

Re: Names addendum

[xenu.livejournal.com]

Also:
I would find it extremely awesome if a man took my name. It's like being husband to the president: not only is it not weak, but it takes incredible strength of character to move past ridicule and do what you feel is right.

However: I would never ever insist on it, and hopefully would get afforded the same level of respect by my intended.

Re: Names

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

As noted below: I think it's generally the best idea to simply add names. Would you be against that? Would it matter which was 'used,' his or yours? What would you name any children? (I still find it hard to conceive of a marriage without children, but I suppose they aren't nearly as rare these days as they once were. Personal fault in my cognitive abilities, is all.)

[metis2be.livejournal.com]

I actually consider taking a different name for marriage to be losing something, not gaining something. You may remember about a year ago when I made a post saying how depressed I was over my sister getting married. I knew it was a horrible thing, but seeing her husbands last name on her mail made it seem like she became a 'them' instead of an 'us'. It also doesn't help that she's spent every holiday for about three years with his family instead of ours.

I actually intend to hyphenate my name. I want to remain a Parks while becoming part of my husbands family. Hopefully I get a husband with a short last name. I don't want to create something new, I want to incorporate my old life with my new life.

I've always found it strange that my mother kept her married name. True, they're still married, but they've been separated for 18 years now. I've never asked her, but I never understood it. Did she not see herself as a Born anymore? Did she want to stay connected to my father, or to us? It actually greatly annoys me when children keep their fathers name after the divorce. I know there's no other way to do it, but I've known several families for years without ever once hearing a single word about the father and yet the mother doesn't share the same last name as her children. I know you can't change a kids last name to suit your life, and I understand women wanting to sever every tie to a bad marriage, but it still bothers me that a father that hasn't been seen in years still imposes his last name on them. I know this isn't always the case, but I keep thinking about one girl who spent her entire life living with her mother after her father left and in the 15 years I've known her, only mentioned him once when insulting him when we were about 7. And yet she still carries around his name.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Good points. My sister's married, and I still never think of her as Jennifer Roberts, even though that's who she is. She'll always be Jenny Portner to me, I think.

As noted below by my brother, our mom took her Maiden name as her middle name, and goes by Mary Gigioli Portner. I think that's a suitable choice, as you don't lose anything but your middle name. I don't like losing names, though, because of my love of them. As noted even further below, I think the optimal form would be First Middle Confirmation Maiden Last.

It actually greatly annoys me when children keep their fathers name after the divorce.
Isn't that your circumstance? Or are they not actually divorced, just separated? What about children who stay with their father, rather than their mother, after a divorce? What about children who stay in contact with both parents? I mean, not to be confrontational, but they're at least as much his biologically as hers; arguments about how much he actually invested in his children aside, since you can have a crummy father (or mother for that matter) with or without divorce.

[metis2be.livejournal.com]

I was laughing at my sisters checkbook a few months ago because it listed the address as my mothers old house that got sold in 04 and said dad was the joint owner even though she was 22. She made a comment about all three things that were wrong and it had to be pointed out to me that it was her maiden name.

Having a maiden name as a middle name is a good alternative. I'm not really connected to my middle name (Renee), most people don't know it. I'm actually closer to Ginger, which is something my dad used to call me when I was a child and I still perk up when I hear it, although it's always addressed to my sisters dog and never me. Burying my middle name wouldn't upset me, and keeping my maiden name present would be acceptable. I'm not fond of hyphenation, I just see it as the best alternative since I wouldn't want to keep my own last name. For some reason, I think that women who keep their last name when they marry don't expect the marriage to last so they don't want to get too involved in it. That's complete bullshit I know, but I want to be part of my husbands family instead of just a stranger with a silly grin who sits in on holidays.

I see the parent who raises the child to be the parent. With adopted children, the adoptive parents are the real parents while the biological parents are gene contributers. You have to know a parent for them to be a parent, otherwise they're just surrogates. Children who stay in contact with both parents have two parents. I lived with my mom until I was about 14 but still saw my dad 2 full days and 6 partial days a month, so I had two parents since he was still there for me. If a mother leaves her child, then the child is the fathers and the kid rightfully has his last name. What I meant to explain is that only when the father walks out on a kid should the kid not have to have his name since it just seems wrong to me. Even if the father's bad at raising the child, his presence justifies the kid having the last name. Also, if the mother leaves the father when he's a good person who likes his kids, the kids should still get his last name since it wasn't his fault he wasn't there for them.

Wow, what a long rant about a hypothetical situation. I just meant that if a father willingly leaves the family, his last name shouldn't remain since he left. If he's still there, or didn't want to leave, it's a moot point.

[bsgnome.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to make a comment about our own mother:

She grew up as Mary C Gigioli (I can't for the life of me remember what the C is exactly: either Catherine or Caroline). Now she goes as Mary G Portner. The G is for Gigioli, her Maiden Name. Now, I imagine, besides being practical--as it distinguishes her from her Mother-in-Law (also a Mary C)--it's also a way to get the "best of both worlds" while avoiding hyphenation: she hasn't lost her Maiden Name, yet she still takes up her husbands name.

I've never asked, but I'm willing to bet she sees her Full Name as being Mary C Gigioli Portner

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

I'm 87% sure her C was Catherine.

[higheststar.livejournal.com]

Ha! i read the whole entry. Because it was interesting. I do know a couple that hyphenated both names to be Booth-Butterfield and it took me a long time to realize that is what they had done. I think the combo thing of mushing is silly. The purpose is to join someone each others family.

I personally have been discussing this very topic with the bf. He actually assumed I would take his but keep mine. So then it would be Elizabeth Anne Harzold Teixeira. But I would just use the Teixeira as my actual last name. I guess I particularly want to keep my own in there somewhere because I have three degrees that have Harzold on it (or I will by then). Plus I really love my family and would feel extremely sad to give up my family name. I think he assumed it because of his culture. He is Portuguese and his own middle name Estivez is his mothers maiden name. So it was not a good deal that I wanted to keep it.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Well, as noted above by my brother, our mom shifted her Maiden name to her middle name, so I grew up with that as 'the norm' and see no problem with a girl keeping her maiden name like that -- in fact, I think just adding his name to yours is the optimal form, as it's truly just adding something: and Elizabeth Anne Harzold Teixeira (or any other surname, really) is just a wonderfully descriptive name. When I think of my Full Name I always think Andrew David Maximilian Portner, adding in my confirmation name. But I'll never have a maiden name. :p

Said boy has a problem with Elizabeth Anne Harzold Teixeira? How come? Especially if his name includes his mother's maiden name?

[higheststar.livejournal.com]

no he has no problem with it. he was the first of us to mention what my married name would be and assumed i would keep mine and add his. and Teixeira is his fathers name. His middle name is his mothers maiden name, as is the norm in a lot of culture.

I meant not a big deal. see what happens when you livejournal in class :-)

Also

[xenu.livejournal.com]

Do you like my new userpic? I had a non-glam fake-glam photo shoot all by myself.

Re: Also

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

-grins- Very nice.

Excellent

[xenu.livejournal.com]

And by the way, if we were to ever get married, YOU'D be taking MY name. Just so you know.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

While Poe is a very awesome surname, it's certainly something I'd have to think about. Really, there are plenty of Portners in the world, it's not like I must carry one the family name lest we be lost to the ages. But even that aside I feel that my name, and the names of my children, are a way of honoring my father, and that's an important thing for me.

[metis2be.livejournal.com]

You wouldn't stick it in the middle? You'd be Andrew David Maximilian Poe Portner. I think that has a nice ring.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

This is actually a possibility I've been considering lately, and would amusingly give me a maiden name. :p Even given that, though, it probably wouldn't be Poe, try though I might.

damn

[xenu.livejournal.com]

WHY won't you marry me? Is it because I don't bring home enough bacon? The fake stuff ain't good enough for ya?

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

It's not me, it's you. :p You remember the whole "I'm really Catholic" and "I want a dozen kids" bit? You don't want this, Jesse. ;)

oh, yeah

[xenu.livejournal.com]

Drat.

plus

[xenu.livejournal.com]

we'd fight all of the time and you'd edit me when i was arguing with you.

Re: plus

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Not edit; correct.

[nif.livejournal.com]

Richard and I were actually talking about this the other day. I'm probably going to keep my last name mostly for job reasons-- getting licensed to teach under one name, then changing it later is a real pain in the ass. Aside from that, Richard really likes the idea of each of us taking the other's last name as a second middle name: so I'd be Jennifer Stephanie Paez Vasani. I'm not entirely sold on this idea, cuz really my name is long enough already. Personally, I have no problem taking his last name, and I think I'll end up doing that eventually. I'm pretty sure I don't want to inflict "Vasani Paez" on our kids, even though Vasani would just be a middle name. Added on top of all this name mess is the fact that most names I like for our kids are Irish which just sound horrible with Italian and Cuban last names. Damn you, cultural melting pot of ancestral names.


P.S. I could totally teach you the International Phonetic Alphabet.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

I'd argue that "Jennifer Stephanie Paez Vasani" is hardly much of a lohg name. But, as noted, I like names. I also dispute that most Irish names wouldn't work with Italian or Cuban surnames. of course, people tell me that I can't name by daughter Penny with a surname of Portner, because aliteration is almost always unacceptable, or something. I don't believe them. (The best argument I've heard is, "then people will sing Penny Portner picked a peck of pickled peppers," as though that were some horrible injustice. My rebuttal: people are mean and stupid regardless of what you name your children, and Penny is still a pretty name. So bah.)

P.S. I'd be so interested in learning. Seriously, i'm CONSTANTLY wishing I could express how things are pronounced...

[nif.livejournal.com]

Well I just think "Seamus Paez" or something like that would be pretty horrible.
Actually I'm thinking more of Donovan if we have a boy. Reagan or Alina if we have a girl. Alina is Italian\Russian.

If you want to study the IPA: http://paulmeier.com/ipa/charts.html is a good place to start. You can click on the symbols to hear the sounds associated with them. If you're interested in how we physically produce sounds, pick up J.C. Catford's "A Practical Introduction to Phonetics". It includes step-by-step instructions for you to produce every sound in every human language.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

See, I don't know if I agree that "Seamus Paez" is all that horrible. granted, I'm not sure of the pronunciation of "Paez," but consider: who is ever going to use his full name? Friends will call him Seamus, as will most superiors (teachers, bosses, etc). Collegaues and inferiors will call him Mr. Paez, or Dr. Paez, or whatever. Almost no one will ever know him as "Seamus Paez," even if they know that's his name. At worst it'll be awkward for someone at the DMV for read his name off of a list.

And, as noted in this post, I think girls with potentially-horrid names have it even easier. At the very least it seems to me no one really decides wether or not to marry based on their other's surname (or, if they do, I think there are deeper issues to consider). What's in a name?

Re: IPA -- thank you for the resource! That'll help me out a lot. And that Intro to Phonetics is going onto my "list of books to buy myself when I'm well-behaved."

What about kids?

[otakulk.livejournal.com]

I you hyphenate your name, you could start a long problem chain.
Imagine being Bob Smith-Johnson-Brown-Jordan, within a few generations last names would have to become acronyms.