The Day a Star Died (Originally: A vent)

[jackofallgeeks]

Amanda: oh my gosh
Amanda: u have to be kidding me.
Amanda: u and your religion... -shaking head-
Amanda: i'm sorry kiddo
Amanda: but, ...
Andrew: But?
Amanda: if you get married to someone and you die the next day,... is it really gonna matter if they wanted a baptist family/jewish fam/ or a catholic one?
Amanda: really.
Amanda: it's nice to have a faith, but like so many other things, i think religion is so destructive for no reason at all
Andrew: Thanks for the suppport. But that's not the point.
Amanda: thanx for the sarcasm
Andrew: Sorry. A bit of a sour mood.
Amanda: i hate to say this, but u are a bit narrow-minded
Amanda: just listen to me a moment
Amanda: so, this is the situation
Amanda: u take so much time and emotional stress and effort to find the one person that wants to raise children in the same faith as you. Your kids reach the age of 18 and decide that they want to be Buddist.... now what? I would argue that u feel like you are an adult and can make your own decisions, despite that fact that your parents wouldn't agree with all of them.
Amanda: so, u r gonna feel like u WAISTED your whole life for nothing cuz then they want to change. is it really necessary for them to be CATHOLIC, or is it just important enough for them to know that they respect all human life
Amanda: and they should be honest, not steal, not kill, not adulturate,....
Amanda: i think the message is more important than the religion that embodies it
Andrew: I agree. But you still miss the point.
Amanda: which is?
Andrew: I don't know, it's not worth it...
Amanda: what?
Amanda: talk to me
Andrew: Maybe I don't have a point. Maybe I just want to live my life a certain way. Maybe I want to raise my kids Catholic because I BELIEVE what the faith teaches...
Amanda: that's fine. u know what? catholicism worked for me. i'm a relatively "normal" person...
Andrew: And maybe I'm a fool, but I couldn't raise my kids without faith, or with a fah I don't agree with....
Amanda: okay, now i'm gonna get mad
Andrew: Why?
Amanda: the FUCKIN' POINT is that the name of the religion is the only thing u r hanging on to! GEEZ! MAN! I read a book called "Interpreting the Koran" or something like that. And the whole freakin' message was that one should be nice, and not kill, not hurt, not cheat, be honest, and all that good BS.
Amanda: and i thought how MUCH it sounded like Catholicism
Amanda: and thought, u know, i don't know why we fight about the fuckin' name of the religion when the freakin' message is the same
Andrew: Pause.
Andrew: IF I was just holding onto the name, THAT would be a different story. And IF someone could show me that's all there is to it, THAT would change things. [censored] You're reading words into my mouth that AREN'T there.
Amanda: well, u know what kiddo! maybe u should learn about the fuckin' tradition in other religions before condemning them! We fuckin' fast during lent and get ashes on our fuckin' forheads for NO FUCKIN' REASON!!!!! And we don't eat meat on fridays then FOR NO FUCKIN' REASON, same as eating flatbread
Amanda: DAMN!
Amanda: look at what u r doing!
Andrew: Did I say for one FUCKING minute that I wasn't interested in learning?
Andrew: Di I SAY that I hadn't asked!?
Amanda: well, u say it's for no reason
Amanda: that is an uneducated statement, dude
Andrew: Did you think for a fucking SECOND that I was TOLD there was no meaning behind them?
Amanda: and remember this, sweetie, Jesus was JEWISH,... and u believe he is God,... God couldn't have thought Judaism was so bad if he decided to make his only son one of them.
Andrew: You know, i'm glad you know everything my relationship. I'm glad you assume I haven't asked my GIRLFRIEND about the faith SHE WANTS ME TO BELIEVE IN. i'm glad you think I'm as fucking narrow-minded and ignorant as all the other ass-holes in the world because I FUCKING BELIEVE IN SOMETHING.
Andrew: Amanda, I'm sorry. I don't want to be mad at you. I don't want you to be mad at me. This isn't worth it.
Amanda: i'm sorry that you are so upset about this, and i don't want to ruin the little relationship we have. we have conflicting views. maybe i am assuming, but you comments are the only things i have to go on, and the only things that you have been saying is that nothing means nothing in that religion and to me that says narrow-minded. and the fact that you are getting so angry over this upsets me. i don't like the fact that you are acting this way and i am sorry that your life is such a fuckin' mess cuz of your religion. that's not my fault, never was, never will be. each person is responsible for their own actions. u are sad cuz you want to be.
Amanda: i'm going to bed.

THIS is why I keep my fucking mouth shut! This is why I don't say a fucking word. It's bad enough that the whole damn world is fucking against me. It's bad enough that I'm such a fucking skrew-up, that I can't do a fucking thing without everyone saying ""Dude, that's messed-up." It doesn't fucking help that I would get attacked when I reached for support. This is what I'm always so fucking afraid of. But I wasn't expecting it from her. Maybe I should have.

It's not fair that everything's so wrong.
Maybe I am just doing it to myself.
Maybe I'd be better off if I had no principles, nothing to stand for. Nohing to fight for. No reason to be attacked.
Maybe I should fucking be like every other waste of flesh on this fucking rock.
Nothing I am seems to matter anyways.

Comments

*hug!*

[tzohekiti.livejournal.com]

I love you. Please dont be upset. I'm sure they didnt mean it the way it came out. And dont you ever regret what your principles are, stick to your guns, but also dont be afraid of change... I dunno. Just whatever happens, dont be afraid to speak your mind! *Hug*

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

I think she did mean it, but I don't regret my principles, and I hope anyone who knows me recognizes that. The last few things I said were meant not to be taken literally, but for artisti emphasis. I'll be OK.

[surichan.livejournal.com]

Alright, Mel already said most of what I wanted to say, but...let me just throw my own personal spin on things.

There've been times when I've questioned the way you live, shaken my head in consternation at something you believe in or the way you think - and I'm sure you've done the exact same thing where I'm concerned. We've got a lot about us that's different; a lot about each other that we have difficulty understanding. I personally think you're setting yourself up for many years of heartbreak and anguish, searching for a certain kind of woman with whom to raise children in the certain way you want them raised. I don't want to see that pain befall you, but, hell, I could be wrong - and I respect that you want what you want, and that really, when it comes right down to it, those are your standards, just like I have mine. I wouldn't want people telling me that what I look for in a man in wrong, and so I refuse to tell you that holding out for a Catholic woman with whom to raise Catholic children isn't the right way to live. It's not my way, but I respect it as yours, and I believe you have the right to defend that, and stand up for it.

On the tail end of that entry...you sounded like every persecuted person on the planet. We all believe different things, and when those things are attacked, we feel as though we're alone, holding our little battlement with a tiny little weapon. Fact is, though, you're not alone - although I'm sure it seems that way for you, surrounded by people who disagree with you and question the way you think. Though I may not agree with you, Andrew, I do love you. I do think you're one hell of a guy, and I admire the way you cling to your ideals - not many people do, these days. I think that's the important thing; for people to be able to put aside their differences and love each other anyway. I think God is pleased when people are able to do that.

I'm sorry that conversation degenerated the way it did. It sounded bloody awful. I cringed many times while reading it. Both of you made good points, but...the way it was handled could've been a lot better. I hope you feel better soon, though...in every respect.

::hugs::

[ex-orin917.livejournal.com]

You know we don't talk much (or at all) or anything but I feel I should just pop my head in and say I know (exactly) what you're going through. I've been attacked by some of my best friends over this same issue.

I'll say two things. Firstly, rock on. Stick to it. It's tough yes and you can wax lyrical about the reasons and principles but when it comes down to it there's a good reason for it. It's not just the kids (yes it's that too) but it's the bond. Going into a relationship that cannot share on a major belief issue is asking for trouble. It starts with a rift that can only get wider. In fact... this person did an excellent job of demonstrating to you precisely why you should stick to your principles... imagine having that conversation with your girlfriend. And most likely that conversation would happen at some point. Not very good for the state of a relationship I would say.

Secondly, you feel persecuted but remember they don't understand. No-one can except you. You can't make them understand, don't even try. The best thing to do is just shrug it off and stop the argument in it's tracks. And don't let it get you down. You're doing the right thing. There's nothing wrong with being picky about who you get into a relationship with.

I shall now resume lurking. :)

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Hey, Patrick, you're right that we don't talk much (or at all), and I kinda regret that. I don't know you very well, but I think you're a good guy, and if nothing else, you get brownie points for understanding me on this.
and yes, you understand! It's one thing to care deeply about someone, and even to stay intimate, life-long friends. But to marry, and live together, and raise a family... Yeah, you understand.

It's difficult and frustrating to acknowledge that, yes, no one will ever understand my situation the way I do.

I'm glad to know you lurk -- I added you as a friend for a reason, after all. But do feel free to comment and such. We don't bite. Hard. Much.

[elwenlassriel.livejournal.com]

Okay, I know this was like two years ago that this happened, but still, I felt very compelled to say something. I think really all I wanted to say was that one) I completely agree with you, and two) well, I’m here. It may or may not work out between us, but there are obviously girls out there, like me, who are Catholic and want large families (no they aren’t scared by the idea of 12 kids) that they want to raise as Catholics, be stay at home moms, home school, and all of it. There may be fewer of us, but we are out there. (*smiles* Christendom is a great place isn’t it?) Hence there is obviously no reason to think it silly to wait for one of us. I know you already know all of this, I just felt like saying it for the record. ;)

[bluegrave.livejournal.com]

This may very well be Becky being a horid person, but you didn't even really get to express your feelings. There is nothing wrong with your views. I'm actually slightly jealous that you can have such strong beliefs and feelings in this day and age.

THere must be an epidemic of stupidity going on or something.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

I'm actually slightly jealous that you can have such strong beliefs and feelings in this day and age.

Yeah, I get that alot...

[bluegrave.livejournal.com]

You should. it takes stong convictions and a deep love to be the way that you are. ^^ There are far to many people I know that fall into the "but what if" trap and can't seem to find a way to something other then apathy.

[naughtjennifer.livejournal.com]

Ok, I'll be honest, I'd probably react in a similar way that you did. I guess it's in our blood or something . . .


What strikes me ften times with many atheists is their arrogance. They see themselves as enlightnend. They boil all religions down to "be good" and think that's all there is to it. In that light, all the different religions do sound rather ridiculous. Ironically, it is their own ignorance which leads them to believe that so many others are ignorant.

This arrogance and ignorance also has an effect on their perception of you, especially online. They also tend to see you in the lowest common denominator. If you say you're Christian, they develop the impression of a KKK hick with a confederate flag and gun rack on his pickup. If you say you're Catholic, they either percieve you as the ever-popular non-practicing Catholic, who doesn't really care about his religion, or some throwback to the middle ages who has never been educated and refuses to embrace modern times.

There is a type of atheist which I can respect, but they seem to be increasingly few. They are exemplified by the quote: "I will disagree with your beliefs to the death, but I will defend your right o ebleive them with my life."

Also, these beliefs which I apply to atheists are not universal and not exclusive. As I just stated, there are other kinds of atheists. Likewise, nondenominational Christians and other groups can have similar views to those previously stated.

What that whole rambling thing was gettign at is that, beleive it or not, they're just as ignorant as they accuse us of being.

Well, now I don't know what the point of this comment was . . . I guess I'm just dropping by to give my support.

[bluegrave.livejournal.com]

Um. . . I hate to do this, but as a pagan I'l mildly (only mildly) offended by that. A lot of the people of whatever belief they have that I know are the variety that want to understand others points of view. They're not as small a group as you may think. We just tend to keep ourselves to ourselves because we have been bombarded with anti us propaganda so much that we just don't want to open our mouths for fear of being called hethens or something else terribly silly.

I do see what you're trying to get at however (Hence the mildly part) And yes, when faced with religon most people will defend their beliefs to the death. This doesn't mean they're ingnorant, it just means they are vehament.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Arguably, as a pagan, you don't technically fall into the category of Atheist. Most people don't, actually, and those you might think do are probably agnostic. The difference might be very academic, though.

Regardless, you'll note he acknowledged that there are reasonable people from all faiths, though he assumes that his lack of interaction with them necessittes that there are few of them. It's a common human assumption.

[bluegrave.livejournal.com]

I know. It just seemed rather at the time that he was saying that there were few people. . . ah,nevermind, I'm too tired to reply at the moment. Maybe I'll be able to get back to it tomorow. Sorry bout that Andrew. ^^ You know I adore you.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid, my brother, that you fall into the same falacy that she did, and you assume. She is not an Atheist. Or not in the common sense. She's Catholic, and while necissarily very nominal, I think she generally makes a better showing that many American Catholics.

[naughtjennifer.livejournal.com]

Actually, I was trying to cover all bases, hence my statement that that attitude wasn't exclusive to atheists. I guess I just didn't make it clear that I was trying not to assume what her religion was. ;p

[bsgnome.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I am so jealous of you right now. Not because of whatever anguish this conversation put you through, but because you were put into such a situation where such a conversation were possible. You may think you're not accomplishing anything, but I firmly believe that you're doing a commendable job at defending the Faith. And that's the kind of position I'd like to be put in. I want to be pressured by those who strongly disagree with my views. I want to be able to stand up for the Truth. But, in my current situation, the closest I've come to it is defending Rock and couple dancing against Puritanical thinkers. I'm so jealous of you right now.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Heh, I'd willingly trade you. It's much easier, I think, and less frustrating to argue that something IS acceptable rather than that something is not. Though, this may simply be a reflection of out society...

Hey handsome...

[serenabuny.livejournal.com]

Here's a hug and an apology for not being around lately v_v. You know, all it really boils down to is stereoypes. Everyone has them and they're necessary for our mental health. We couldn't possibly process all the information it takes to completely individualize everyone. It seems to me like you were both in bad moods and she jumped to wild assumptions and narrow stereotypes that made her feel better about herself. Sounds like she had to lash out and shove her opinion downs someone's throat to make herself feel better. It doesn't matter about the difference in opinions, just the horrible combination of nerves and sensitive buttons that got jammed. Hope you're doing better and when can I give you a call this weekend? I'm all free ^_^. Love and huggles...

Missing you.

[jackofallgeeks.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's OK, Dear, I've been not around, too. And yeah, it boils down to stereotypes, but what bothers me is this was a girl I felt I knew enough (and she knew me) that I might be able to confide in her, and look for a little support, and instead this happens. And yeah, I think we were both in bad moods, but... I don't know.

As for calling me, you're always welcome to, anytime at all. Since you asked, this weekend's schedule is really shaky. Saturday night i'm seeing my brother's play, and I'm trying to get in touch with people about doing things that day. Sunday I may be mostly free, but Asya was asking if we might do something that evening... Generally, though, anytime you call I'd be happy to hear from you.

I hope you're doing well, too, Claire.