My Conversation with Meghan
May. 29th, 2006 01:12 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jackofallgeeksAfter a long day, I came home, checked my mail, and took a three hour nap from 20:00 until 23:00. I got up, checked my mail, and saw that Meghan was online.
Editted to improve readability.
[23:18] Andrew: Hey.
[23:19] Meghan: I'm in a really bad mood right now, so it may be best to leave me be
[23:19] Andrew: However you would have it. Hope you feel better.
[23:19] Meghan: Patrick and I are having an argument, and he just signed off
[23:20] Andrew: Unresolved, I guess?
[23:20] Meghan: The equivalent of hanging up on someone.
[23:21] Andrew: Ouch. I'm sorry.
[23:21] Meghan: I feel so horrible
[23:21] Andrew: Do you want to talk about it? Do you want to talk about anything-but-it?
[23:21] Meghan: yes and no to both
[23:21] Andrew: -smirk- Ah yes.
[23:21] Meghan: he is quite upset with me and I'm quite upset with myself. it's my fault
[23:22] Andrew: Why are you both upset with you?
[23:22] Meghan: I hurt him, I know I did
[23:22] Andrew: How?
[23:23] Meghan: some things were bothering me, I didn't say anything, now I finally did. he was hurt that they were bothering me, but he was more hurt that I didn't say anything about it to him sooner.
[23:23] Andrew: He hung up on you because you didn't say something sooner?
[23:23] Meghan: no, not really. he was just getting overwhelmed by the semi-argument, and said he needed to just think about all of it and told me to have a good night, then signed off before I could respond
[23:24] Andrew: -nod nod- And you're upset that he's upset...? You think you did something wrong by not speaking sooner?
[23:25] Meghan: he was also really hurt that I had talked to a few of my firends about it before I talked to him. yes, I really should have told him
[23:25] Andrew: Well, why did you not? (Not accusing)
[23:26] Meghan: I was going to, but one friend didn't seem to think it a good idea, said he was dealing with too much as it was, and that I shouldn't say anything. the other part, I knew I should have said something sooner, but I just couldn't bring myself to tell him. i was afraid that he would be hurt by it, so I didn't say anything. that just made it worse
[23:27] Andrew: And i'm guessing he was hurt by the content of all this, too, huh?
[23:27] Meghan: He also probably wouldn't like it that I'm talking to you right now. you aren't his favorite person
[23:27] Andrew: -smirk- I'm sure.
[23:27] Meghan: he still see you as competition.
[23:27] Andrew: I'm not concerned with him, though; if you ask me to leave, I will.
[23:28] Meghan: I know
[23:29] Andrew: I don't know that there's much I can say. I think it's a fact that no relationship is healthy that doesn't have arguments, so in that vein this is good. That doesn't make it easier.
[23:29] Meghan: no it doesn't. He thinks you treated me poorly, and gets rather frustrated with me when I defend you.
[23:29] Andrew: I did treat you poorly. There were extenuating circumstances, I like to think, but I also think I was an idiot. That's not the point, though.
[23:30] Meghan: *smiles* Well, if you want to be the idiot, who am I to argue.
[23:31] Andrew: -grins- You'd be a fool to argue, and we both know it.
[23:31] Meghan: *laughs* Yes, you would win, you always do. it was at least partly my fault too though
[23:30] Andrew: Why do you think so?
[23:30] Meghan: Because I pushed you so much. I should have just let you be
[23:31] Andrew: No, you didn't do anything wrong. At worst it was bad timing, but that wasn't your doing. That's the way things were. I think you did everything right.
[23:32] Meghan: Well, that's good to know that you think so. of course that leads to the question of why do I still speak to you, but you seem to be very good at getting people to keep being friends with you
[23:33] Andrew: Ha ha. Why speak to me if I treated you badly?
[23:33] Meghan: yeah, pretty much,
[23:34] Andrew: -shrugs- I can't answer that one for you, but i'm glad you do.
[23:34] Meghan: you're fun to talk to I guess
[23:34] Andrew: *bows* I try to be entertaining.
[23:34] Meghan: you are
[23:32] Andrew: So... he was upset you talked to your friends?
[23:33] Meghan: no, he is (or at least was) fine with me being friends with you, I asked him that when we first started dating. Pat said he feels like I am still leaving the door open for you, and he doesn't like it
[23:36] Andrew: A lot I could query about that last bit, but... But I meant, you said one thing that upset him tonight was you consulted your friends.
[23:35] Meghan: well, sort of. he was hurt, and felt like I was going and talking to my friends and family about him, while he has never said an unkind word to anyone about me. he said he felt like a fool. I felt so bad. I just wanted to crawl in a hole and die
[23:37] Andrew: Well, if he had unkind words to say, he ought to have said them. No offense, Meghan, but you aren't perfect, and it's best we all recognize that we're all human. Why a fool?
[23:37] Meghan: *sigh* he signed on for only a moment, then got back off again. I'm afraid to try to call him
[23:38] Andrew: It's best to not go to bed angry.
[23:38] Meghan: I know
[23:38] Andrew: Why are you afraid?
[23:39] Meghan: our talk was Via AIM because I didn't want to talk about it on the phone. I'm not sure how mad he is with me. If I had a hard time talking to him on AIM, I don't know that I could call him
[23:39] Andrew: Are you scared to hear his voice? Afraid you'll cry on the phone?
[23:39] Meghan: yes to both
[23:39] Andrew: -nods- I know the feeling. Sometimes it's good to cry. -shrugs- Though... I think you did right, from what I've heard. One ought to be upfront and say what's bugging them, but there's nothing wrong with consulting friends and family.
[23:40] Meghan: and as for saying unkind things about me, I really think that he had meant that he didn't ever have anything unkind to say about me
[23:40] Andrew: Aye. i'm sure that's what he meant.
[23:41] Meghan: he was always singing my praises, . I felt so horrible
[23:41] Andrew: Why?
[23:41] Meghan: I felt like I had stabbed him in the back
[23:41] Andrew: But why? Did you say anything untrue?
[23:41] Meghan: no, But still,
[23:42] Andrew: Were you doing anythin g more than seeking council?
[23:42] Meghan: no. I know I'm not perfect by any means, but I shouldn't expect anyone else to be either
[23:42] Andrew: Then where's your fault? And where were you expecting anyone to be perfect?
[23:42] Meghan: the only person that I could say I actually complained to was my mom
[23:42] Andrew: -smiles- Which is traditional.
[23:43] Meghan: yes, but I felt like I couldn't sit there an justify myself
[23:43] Andrew: "Sit there" being talking to him?
[23:43] Meghan: yes
[23:43] Andrew: You shouldn't need to justify talking to your friends and family. You and he are not in isolation.
[23:44] Meghan: Not really justify talking to them, but that I didn't say anything bad about him. not really
[23:44] Andrew: I don't see why it's pertinent whether or not you said anything bad about him.
[23:45] Andrew: There are unkind-but-true things to be said about anyone. And sometimes, especially in relationships, these things come to a head.
[23:45] Meghan: one shouldn't talk about people behind their back. if they have a problem, they should bring it to their face
[23:45] Andrew: You weren't, unless I misunderstand you.
[23:45] Andrew: This is true, and you did.
[23:46] Meghan: I did go to my friends and tell them thing that had been bothering me, things I should have told him sooner. I also feel bad because I know how very much it bothers him for people not to confront him with things
[23:46] Andrew: Did you treat him differently than you would have treted any good friend?
[23:47] Meghan: no, but that's not to say it was the right thing to do
[23:47] Andrew: I disagree. -smirk- But then, you might have anticipated I would.
[23:47] Meghan: I need to get over not telling people thing for fear of hurting them
[23:47] Andrew: This is true.
[23:48] Meghan: I should learn that it is worse the longer you wait
[23:48] Andrew: But you didn't do anything wrong, either. Your greatest crime is that you hesitated, and there's not much to be done about that.
[23:48] Meghan: only in not telling him everything when it happend, or when it started bothering me (there were two different things)
[23:48] Andrew: You were right to go to your friends and family.
[23:49] Meghan: but I should't have waited over a week or more to tell him about it
[23:49] Andrew: -shrugs- Maybe. A week's not long. Sometimes it takes me a week just to know that something *is* bothering me, let alone what.
[23:49] Meghan: what I had to say was hard enough for him, the fact that I waited hurt more, the fact that it seemed like he was the last to know about it hurt even more
[23:50] Andrew: This is an unfortunate fact.
[23:50] Meghan: yes
[23:50] Andrew: But you still did nothing wrong.
[23:50] Meghan: but I did,
[23:51] Meghan: yes, it was okay to go to family and friends about it, but it wasn't okay to wait so long to tell him
[23:51] Andrew: I argue that a week, even two, isn't long.
[23:51] Meghan: (it depends on the subject matter, somethings should be mentioned sooner. parictualy when people other than the one whome with it deals knows about it)
[23:52] Andrew: (I'm still not so sure, but it's hard to speak in such vague terms.)
[23:53] Meghan: (okay, let's just say it was bigger than, you do this, it bugs me kind of things)
[23:54] Andrew: I still don't think a week is long. Not long enough to make a point of.
[23:51] Andrew: I really don't want to say so, but at least part of that hurt is his own fault.
[23:51] Meghan: why so
[23:51] Andrew: Why is it his fault?
[23:51] Meghan: yes
[23:52] Andrew: Because it's not such a big deal, really. Because you didn't cause him any grevious harm in how you handled things, and that he would have expected otherwise is his own fault, and it's at least in part his expectations of you and how it oight to have been handled that's hurting him right now.
[23:54] Meghan: and yes, it is hurting him that he had expected more of me, and I didn't live up to that
[23:54] Andrew: And if the others who knew were your friends and family, I'm at a loss for how that affects him.
[23:54] Meghan: he feels betrayed
[23:54] Andrew: Expectations are the sharp edges of relationships that cut most readily.
[23:55] Andrew: It's good to have certain expectations is certain ways, but if they're too high, or expected in the wrong way, they only cause problems.
[23:55] Meghan: It really hurts him when people don't come to him when they have a problem with him or something he did, and he knows I know this
[23:56] Andrew: (And i'll note that you didn't not-confront him maliciously)
[23:56] Meghan: no, but it was rather a shock to him. he didn't see it comming at all, and to know that it had been building for a while without himknowning, and that he was the last to know about it really hurt him
[23:57] Andrew: (Hey, I didn't know, ne? :-p He should at least appreciate that.)
[23:58] Meghan: (not following. you didn't know what?)
[23:59] Andrew: (I diden't know anything was wrong.)
[00:00] Meghan: (Oh, you mean he knew before you? is that it?)
[00:00] Andrew: (He wasn't The Last to know. :-p)
[00:00] Meghan: (okay following now)
[23:55] Andrew: I've a short story about it, if you'd like to hear.
[23:55] Meghan: why not. shoot
[23:56] Andrew: Just needed to catch you attention, is all.
[23:56] Andrew: So, my friend Anastasiya. She's dating my friend Zach. I know them both pretty well because I dated her and I lived with him. She and I are still on good terms because we broke up amiably. She comes to me when she's having trouble, and that's fine and all. She gets really upset sometimes, because that's her way. I would talk to her a lot of the time about it, and often it would boil down to "he hasn't called me," or "he said such-and-such" or "He didn't do such-and-such." That's what she would say. But what she meant was "I would do X if I cared about someone, and he didn't do X, so he doesn't care about me." And the problem here was not that he had done anything wrong, but that he hadn't behaved in the way she expected him to. And that's the sort of trouble that expectations can cause. Becauase they are built on nothing more than our own experiences and biases and, well, expectations, and that's not going to be the same for everyone.
[00:01] Meghan: Yeah, I think we are all guilty of that
[00:01] Andrew: We are, this is true. This is human. The fact that you didn't meet his expectations means just that; it doesn't mean anything you did was wrong.
[00:03] Meghan: but the problem is i did know his expectations, I should have known how much that would hurt him
[00:03] Andrew: That doesn't matter as much as you might think. You didn't do it maliciously. If anything, you did it out of weakness. And point of fact is you did confront him. Apologies if it wasn't prompt enough. *tries to not get snippy*
[00:04] Meghan: I did
[00:04] Andrew: Did...?
[00:04] Meghan: he did forgive me
[00:04] Andrew: :-p I didn't say "apologize."
[00:04] Meghan: but he's still hurt
[00:05] Andrew: This is true. People get hurt. People will always get hurt. It's in our nature. It's not your job to... pretend like the world isn't as it is, I guess is what I'm looking to say.
[00:06] Meghan: Perhaps. I don't know. I still do feel really bad
[00:06] Andrew: You upset him; that's valid reason to feel bad.
[00:06] Meghan: I so wanted to avoid hurting him, but I only made it worse
[00:07] Andrew: And such is life.
[00:07] Meghan: I knew I should have talked to him sooner and I didn't
[00:07] Andrew: You meant well.
[00:02] Meghan: as for Pat and I's argument, it's the second time he has offered me my "freedom" if I really wanted it. I don't like offers like that
[00:02] Andrew: What, he said "if you don't like it, leave?"
[00:07] Meghan: and he didn't say 'this is the way it is, if you don't like it leave," he isn't at all like that
[00:07] Andrew: Well, I was mostly being concise. Either way, I'm not sure it's a fair or kind offer to make, but I don't know the details.
[00:08] Meghan: "Well if you want your freedom, it is yours if yous hould want it." I said I didn't want it,
[00:08] Andrew: Really, he needn't tell you that sort of thing.
[00:09] Meghan: he said that "you give that impression on some level." His basic mesage is 'I love you very much, and want to be with you always, but you certainly aren't my prisoner, and you may leave if you really want to'
[00:11] Andrew: Which should be understood. But... -shrugs-
[00:11] Meghan: he has never said those exact words, but that was the general message
[00:11] Andrew: I've said my part previously.
[00:12] Meghan: I also know him well enough to know it is said with a heartbroken tone. I will admit it wasn't what i wanted to hear, and said so. I want to talk to him, but I really don't know what to say. I texted him "Please don't go to sleep upset" the phone says it was delivered, but he didn't reply
[00:13] Andrew: Well, you still think you're in the wrong, ne?
[00:14] Meghan: only in that I didn't talk to him sooner. I just feel so awlful because our conversation had been really going okay. He had been handling it all very well, being quite helpful. telling me it was okay, he wasn't upset, i was fine and all. then I brought up the second thing, then he was upset. the thing that I hadn't told him because I didn't really think it would be that bid of a deal (part wasn't, but part was)
[00:14] Andrew: I still dispute that, but... -shrugs- Don't know what else to say, though there's plenty I think could be said.
[00:15] Meghan: such as?
[00:16] Andrew: -shrugs- "I've seen this before,"? In general if not specific. That sort of thing.
[00:16] Meghan: what do you mean you've seen it before?
[00:19] Andrew: Well, I can't say much for content, but... I've seen it before because this is the way inexperienced relationships go. That's not to say it's broken, but it's the way things are.
[00:20] Meghan: maybe,
[00:20] Andrew: Mmm?
[00:20] Meghan: maybe that's just the way they go sometimes.
[00:21] Andrew: -smirk- I would say 'always' rather than 'sometimes,' but...
[00:21] Andrew: Like I said, i'm not saying anything on content because I don't know what it is; and I needn't, really.
[00:21] Meghan: I will say it wasn't a little thing, and he is rather hurt and upset about it all. It also really doesn't help that we are so far away from eachother
[00:21] Andrew: Aye. Distance is hard. Nothing makes distance easier.
[00:21] Meghan: no. and this is making it a lot harder I really hope this doesn't taint our relationship
[00:21] Andrew: In my experience, it won't. It's indicative of a problem -- that things were bothering you is a problem -- but that doesn't mean it's broken. Arguments are good for relationships. Healthy.
[00:22] Meghan: and there isn't anyway I will get to see him for a nother couple weeks (making it a month) if things don't improve, I'm not sure he will want to come
[00:23] Andrew: This may be.
[00:23] Meghan: We've had them before, though often I'm the one upset, not him. This is only the second time I've actually had him upset with me. but i think this time it's more hurt than upset
[00:24] Andrew: More often than not, in all cases, it's more hurt than upset.
[00:24] Meghan: well, the first he was more upset than hurt, but anyways
[00:25] Andrew: Well, I wouldn't know. -smiles- Still... I really think he shouldn't expect some of what he might.
[00:25] Meghan: I don't know
[00:25] Andrew: It's my experience that often we put those we adore on a pedestal, and that's not healthy for a relationship.
[00:26] Meghan: perhaps not
[00:26] Andrew: No perhaps. It's never good, because people are flawed. We're all human. You can't really know someone if you don't allow them their faults.
[00:26] Meghan: of course. you know what I meant
[00:26] Andrew: I try not to deal in "what I meants" -smile-
[00:27] Meghan: (he got back on, ) maybe he will talk to me
[00:27] Andrew: You talk to him.
[00:27] Meghan: He said he doesn't want to talk to me right now, but will in time
[00:28] Andrew: He's upset; that's fair. Don't be sad, Meghan.
[00:28] Meghan: you read my mind
[00:28] Andrew: -smiles-
[00:28] Meghan: but then, i guess that's pretty easy to do right now.
[00:29] Andrew: Psssh. Let me pretend I'm skilled in social interactions.
[00:29] Meghan: *laughs*
[00:28] Meghan: I am very sad right now. I feel so very bad
[00:29] Andrew: Don't be, Meghan. It'll be Ok.
[00:29] Meghan: but I am, this all came about because I didn't want to hurt him
[00:29] Andrew: And that's a noble aim.
[00:29] Meghan: but I couldn't avoid that, and i made it worse
[00:29] Andrew: This is a lesson which must be learned. That doesn't mean you did anything wrong.
[00:29] Meghan: I guess so, but I knew I should have said something to him earlier, but I didn't. that's why I'm upset with myself. because I knew better
[00:30] Andrew: Did we ever estabish a "Why" to that hesitation?
[00:30] Meghan: it was because of my weakness. I wasn't able to bring myself to talk to him about it
[00:31] Andrew: Not wanting to hurt people isn't a weakness.. Not knowing that you can't prevent certain pain is an ignorance, but I wouldn't say it's a weakness in you.
[00:31] Meghan: but I didn't because I didn't want to deal with it, I didn't want to face it
[00:31] Andrew: Were you afraid you'd get hurt?
[00:32] Meghan: I was afraid that he would get hurt. It also didn't help that my mom was out of the country
[00:32] Andrew: Aye.
[00:32] Meghan: I wasn't able to talk to her about any of it
[00:32] Andrew: Bad circumstances, that.
[00:33] Meghan: I wanted to talk to her before she left, but everything was so busy, I didn't want to bother her. then things seemed to get better for a little while (I told Pat a little of what was bothering me, just general things though). then it got bad again when it all came back to mind because I was telling her all about everything. (well almost everything, anways)
[00:34] Andrew: Her? Your mom?
[00:35] Meghan: yeah
[00:35] Andrew: OK.
[00:34] Meghan: Pat just got off. After Pat said he didn't want to talk to me right now, I remided him that I love him very much and that whole bit, he never replied. *sigh*
[00:36] Andrew: Don't worry about it, Meghan.. Worrying will never serve you any good.
[00:37] Meghan: He has been hurt so much by others, has alway needed aproval from those close to him (I think mainly because he doesn't get enough of it from home), i was the only one he could really coun't on, and now I too have betrayed the trust and security he had in me. I feel so awful
[00:38] Andrew: I repeat myself: you shouldn't. I can't find an encouraging way to say "His disappointment is a matter on he can resolve," but that's the way it is.
[00:38] Meghan: If you knew that you did that to someone you cared very deeply for, wouldn't you feel bad too?
[00:39] Andrew: That's not a simple question to answer. Pain and suffering are not always the evils they're made out to be.
[00:40] Meghan: but I feel like (I know that I have) betrayed that safety he had in me
[00:40] Andrew: I don't know that you've betrayed anything, and certainly not by a small hesitation to speak.
[00:40] Meghan: I've betrayed that because i hurt him. I didn't mean to, but that's what happened
[00:41] Andrew: You're blaming yourself foe something you have no control over.
[00:41] Meghan: It's going to take a long time to build that up again, for him to feel safe with me once more
[00:41] Andrew: For your sake, I hope not. Arguably for his sake, too; it would make him a better person.
[00:42] Meghan: I can only imagine if he had to tell me what I said to him. After all the pain he went through, to finally think he was safe from all of it, only to have that safty robed from him, it's heart wrenching
[00:42] Andrew: Meghan, you know that I've been hurt a lot, right?
[00:43] Meghan: yes, I know you've been hurt alot too (though, were you in practically in the hospital over it?)
[00:43] Andrew: Do you know that I would change none of it? I've learned more about myself, and about people, and lessons I could not learn otherwise, through that hurt.
[00:44] Meghan: *sigh* that's good to hear at least
[00:44] Andrew: To have spared me any of that pain, as kind as it might have seemed at the time, would have left me a lesser man. Your job is not to spare him pain. Not to say you should inflict it on him, but "life is pain, Highness."
[00:45] Meghan: but to be the cause of someone's pain, someone I love so dearly, someone I wanted to avoid hurting as much as possible, to know that I only made it worse, that's really hard to face
[00:46] Andrew: I can't predict the future and say you've done him a kindness, though experience might tell me you have. But you can't predict the future and say no good has come of this. If this pain were the one to free him from his demons, would you still wish you'd avoided it?
[00:47] Meghan: no
[00:47] Andrew: You can only do what you feel to be right, and I believe you did. That it had consequences you weren't expecting and don't like... -shrugs- That's life.
[00:48] Meghan: I guess. it's just hard to face the fact that I knew I should have said something before now. but I didn't
[00:48] Andrew: 'Knew' is a funny word to use. I don't think you 'knew'.
[00:48] Meghan: maybe not
[00:48] Andrew: That's the point; you didn't think it was right to say your bit then. You made a choice. It's done. No use in worrying about what might have been.
[00:49] Meghan: "Patrick" (3:48:51 AM): I would call you but I suppose you are chatting with someone (Andrew?) about me and I wouldn't want to interrupt.
[00:49] Andrew: -smirk- "Don't be an idiot, Patrick. I want to talk to you."
[00:50] Meghan: *smiles*
And so she did.
Comments appreciated.
Editted to improve readability.
[23:18] Andrew: Hey.
[23:19] Meghan: I'm in a really bad mood right now, so it may be best to leave me be
[23:19] Andrew: However you would have it. Hope you feel better.
[23:19] Meghan: Patrick and I are having an argument, and he just signed off
[23:20] Andrew: Unresolved, I guess?
[23:20] Meghan: The equivalent of hanging up on someone.
[23:21] Andrew: Ouch. I'm sorry.
[23:21] Meghan: I feel so horrible
[23:21] Andrew: Do you want to talk about it? Do you want to talk about anything-but-it?
[23:21] Meghan: yes and no to both
[23:21] Andrew: -smirk- Ah yes.
[23:21] Meghan: he is quite upset with me and I'm quite upset with myself. it's my fault
[23:22] Andrew: Why are you both upset with you?
[23:22] Meghan: I hurt him, I know I did
[23:22] Andrew: How?
[23:23] Meghan: some things were bothering me, I didn't say anything, now I finally did. he was hurt that they were bothering me, but he was more hurt that I didn't say anything about it to him sooner.
[23:23] Andrew: He hung up on you because you didn't say something sooner?
[23:23] Meghan: no, not really. he was just getting overwhelmed by the semi-argument, and said he needed to just think about all of it and told me to have a good night, then signed off before I could respond
[23:24] Andrew: -nod nod- And you're upset that he's upset...? You think you did something wrong by not speaking sooner?
[23:25] Meghan: he was also really hurt that I had talked to a few of my firends about it before I talked to him. yes, I really should have told him
[23:25] Andrew: Well, why did you not? (Not accusing)
[23:26] Meghan: I was going to, but one friend didn't seem to think it a good idea, said he was dealing with too much as it was, and that I shouldn't say anything. the other part, I knew I should have said something sooner, but I just couldn't bring myself to tell him. i was afraid that he would be hurt by it, so I didn't say anything. that just made it worse
[23:27] Andrew: And i'm guessing he was hurt by the content of all this, too, huh?
[23:27] Meghan: He also probably wouldn't like it that I'm talking to you right now. you aren't his favorite person
[23:27] Andrew: -smirk- I'm sure.
[23:27] Meghan: he still see you as competition.
[23:27] Andrew: I'm not concerned with him, though; if you ask me to leave, I will.
[23:28] Meghan: I know
[23:29] Andrew: I don't know that there's much I can say. I think it's a fact that no relationship is healthy that doesn't have arguments, so in that vein this is good. That doesn't make it easier.
[23:29] Meghan: no it doesn't. He thinks you treated me poorly, and gets rather frustrated with me when I defend you.
[23:29] Andrew: I did treat you poorly. There were extenuating circumstances, I like to think, but I also think I was an idiot. That's not the point, though.
[23:30] Meghan: *smiles* Well, if you want to be the idiot, who am I to argue.
[23:31] Andrew: -grins- You'd be a fool to argue, and we both know it.
[23:31] Meghan: *laughs* Yes, you would win, you always do. it was at least partly my fault too though
[23:30] Andrew: Why do you think so?
[23:30] Meghan: Because I pushed you so much. I should have just let you be
[23:31] Andrew: No, you didn't do anything wrong. At worst it was bad timing, but that wasn't your doing. That's the way things were. I think you did everything right.
[23:32] Meghan: Well, that's good to know that you think so. of course that leads to the question of why do I still speak to you, but you seem to be very good at getting people to keep being friends with you
[23:33] Andrew: Ha ha. Why speak to me if I treated you badly?
[23:33] Meghan: yeah, pretty much,
[23:34] Andrew: -shrugs- I can't answer that one for you, but i'm glad you do.
[23:34] Meghan: you're fun to talk to I guess
[23:34] Andrew: *bows* I try to be entertaining.
[23:34] Meghan: you are
[23:32] Andrew: So... he was upset you talked to your friends?
[23:33] Meghan: no, he is (or at least was) fine with me being friends with you, I asked him that when we first started dating. Pat said he feels like I am still leaving the door open for you, and he doesn't like it
[23:36] Andrew: A lot I could query about that last bit, but... But I meant, you said one thing that upset him tonight was you consulted your friends.
[23:35] Meghan: well, sort of. he was hurt, and felt like I was going and talking to my friends and family about him, while he has never said an unkind word to anyone about me. he said he felt like a fool. I felt so bad. I just wanted to crawl in a hole and die
[23:37] Andrew: Well, if he had unkind words to say, he ought to have said them. No offense, Meghan, but you aren't perfect, and it's best we all recognize that we're all human. Why a fool?
[23:37] Meghan: *sigh* he signed on for only a moment, then got back off again. I'm afraid to try to call him
[23:38] Andrew: It's best to not go to bed angry.
[23:38] Meghan: I know
[23:38] Andrew: Why are you afraid?
[23:39] Meghan: our talk was Via AIM because I didn't want to talk about it on the phone. I'm not sure how mad he is with me. If I had a hard time talking to him on AIM, I don't know that I could call him
[23:39] Andrew: Are you scared to hear his voice? Afraid you'll cry on the phone?
[23:39] Meghan: yes to both
[23:39] Andrew: -nods- I know the feeling. Sometimes it's good to cry. -shrugs- Though... I think you did right, from what I've heard. One ought to be upfront and say what's bugging them, but there's nothing wrong with consulting friends and family.
[23:40] Meghan: and as for saying unkind things about me, I really think that he had meant that he didn't ever have anything unkind to say about me
[23:40] Andrew: Aye. i'm sure that's what he meant.
[23:41] Meghan: he was always singing my praises, . I felt so horrible
[23:41] Andrew: Why?
[23:41] Meghan: I felt like I had stabbed him in the back
[23:41] Andrew: But why? Did you say anything untrue?
[23:41] Meghan: no, But still,
[23:42] Andrew: Were you doing anythin g more than seeking council?
[23:42] Meghan: no. I know I'm not perfect by any means, but I shouldn't expect anyone else to be either
[23:42] Andrew: Then where's your fault? And where were you expecting anyone to be perfect?
[23:42] Meghan: the only person that I could say I actually complained to was my mom
[23:42] Andrew: -smiles- Which is traditional.
[23:43] Meghan: yes, but I felt like I couldn't sit there an justify myself
[23:43] Andrew: "Sit there" being talking to him?
[23:43] Meghan: yes
[23:43] Andrew: You shouldn't need to justify talking to your friends and family. You and he are not in isolation.
[23:44] Meghan: Not really justify talking to them, but that I didn't say anything bad about him. not really
[23:44] Andrew: I don't see why it's pertinent whether or not you said anything bad about him.
[23:45] Andrew: There are unkind-but-true things to be said about anyone. And sometimes, especially in relationships, these things come to a head.
[23:45] Meghan: one shouldn't talk about people behind their back. if they have a problem, they should bring it to their face
[23:45] Andrew: You weren't, unless I misunderstand you.
[23:45] Andrew: This is true, and you did.
[23:46] Meghan: I did go to my friends and tell them thing that had been bothering me, things I should have told him sooner. I also feel bad because I know how very much it bothers him for people not to confront him with things
[23:46] Andrew: Did you treat him differently than you would have treted any good friend?
[23:47] Meghan: no, but that's not to say it was the right thing to do
[23:47] Andrew: I disagree. -smirk- But then, you might have anticipated I would.
[23:47] Meghan: I need to get over not telling people thing for fear of hurting them
[23:47] Andrew: This is true.
[23:48] Meghan: I should learn that it is worse the longer you wait
[23:48] Andrew: But you didn't do anything wrong, either. Your greatest crime is that you hesitated, and there's not much to be done about that.
[23:48] Meghan: only in not telling him everything when it happend, or when it started bothering me (there were two different things)
[23:48] Andrew: You were right to go to your friends and family.
[23:49] Meghan: but I should't have waited over a week or more to tell him about it
[23:49] Andrew: -shrugs- Maybe. A week's not long. Sometimes it takes me a week just to know that something *is* bothering me, let alone what.
[23:49] Meghan: what I had to say was hard enough for him, the fact that I waited hurt more, the fact that it seemed like he was the last to know about it hurt even more
[23:50] Andrew: This is an unfortunate fact.
[23:50] Meghan: yes
[23:50] Andrew: But you still did nothing wrong.
[23:50] Meghan: but I did,
[23:51] Meghan: yes, it was okay to go to family and friends about it, but it wasn't okay to wait so long to tell him
[23:51] Andrew: I argue that a week, even two, isn't long.
[23:51] Meghan: (it depends on the subject matter, somethings should be mentioned sooner. parictualy when people other than the one whome with it deals knows about it)
[23:52] Andrew: (I'm still not so sure, but it's hard to speak in such vague terms.)
[23:53] Meghan: (okay, let's just say it was bigger than, you do this, it bugs me kind of things)
[23:54] Andrew: I still don't think a week is long. Not long enough to make a point of.
[23:51] Andrew: I really don't want to say so, but at least part of that hurt is his own fault.
[23:51] Meghan: why so
[23:51] Andrew: Why is it his fault?
[23:51] Meghan: yes
[23:52] Andrew: Because it's not such a big deal, really. Because you didn't cause him any grevious harm in how you handled things, and that he would have expected otherwise is his own fault, and it's at least in part his expectations of you and how it oight to have been handled that's hurting him right now.
[23:54] Meghan: and yes, it is hurting him that he had expected more of me, and I didn't live up to that
[23:54] Andrew: And if the others who knew were your friends and family, I'm at a loss for how that affects him.
[23:54] Meghan: he feels betrayed
[23:54] Andrew: Expectations are the sharp edges of relationships that cut most readily.
[23:55] Andrew: It's good to have certain expectations is certain ways, but if they're too high, or expected in the wrong way, they only cause problems.
[23:55] Meghan: It really hurts him when people don't come to him when they have a problem with him or something he did, and he knows I know this
[23:56] Andrew: (And i'll note that you didn't not-confront him maliciously)
[23:56] Meghan: no, but it was rather a shock to him. he didn't see it comming at all, and to know that it had been building for a while without himknowning, and that he was the last to know about it really hurt him
[23:57] Andrew: (Hey, I didn't know, ne? :-p He should at least appreciate that.)
[23:58] Meghan: (not following. you didn't know what?)
[23:59] Andrew: (I diden't know anything was wrong.)
[00:00] Meghan: (Oh, you mean he knew before you? is that it?)
[00:00] Andrew: (He wasn't The Last to know. :-p)
[00:00] Meghan: (okay following now)
[23:55] Andrew: I've a short story about it, if you'd like to hear.
[23:55] Meghan: why not. shoot
[23:56] Andrew: Just needed to catch you attention, is all.
[23:56] Andrew: So, my friend Anastasiya. She's dating my friend Zach. I know them both pretty well because I dated her and I lived with him. She and I are still on good terms because we broke up amiably. She comes to me when she's having trouble, and that's fine and all. She gets really upset sometimes, because that's her way. I would talk to her a lot of the time about it, and often it would boil down to "he hasn't called me," or "he said such-and-such" or "He didn't do such-and-such." That's what she would say. But what she meant was "I would do X if I cared about someone, and he didn't do X, so he doesn't care about me." And the problem here was not that he had done anything wrong, but that he hadn't behaved in the way she expected him to. And that's the sort of trouble that expectations can cause. Becauase they are built on nothing more than our own experiences and biases and, well, expectations, and that's not going to be the same for everyone.
[00:01] Meghan: Yeah, I think we are all guilty of that
[00:01] Andrew: We are, this is true. This is human. The fact that you didn't meet his expectations means just that; it doesn't mean anything you did was wrong.
[00:03] Meghan: but the problem is i did know his expectations, I should have known how much that would hurt him
[00:03] Andrew: That doesn't matter as much as you might think. You didn't do it maliciously. If anything, you did it out of weakness. And point of fact is you did confront him. Apologies if it wasn't prompt enough. *tries to not get snippy*
[00:04] Meghan: I did
[00:04] Andrew: Did...?
[00:04] Meghan: he did forgive me
[00:04] Andrew: :-p I didn't say "apologize."
[00:04] Meghan: but he's still hurt
[00:05] Andrew: This is true. People get hurt. People will always get hurt. It's in our nature. It's not your job to... pretend like the world isn't as it is, I guess is what I'm looking to say.
[00:06] Meghan: Perhaps. I don't know. I still do feel really bad
[00:06] Andrew: You upset him; that's valid reason to feel bad.
[00:06] Meghan: I so wanted to avoid hurting him, but I only made it worse
[00:07] Andrew: And such is life.
[00:07] Meghan: I knew I should have talked to him sooner and I didn't
[00:07] Andrew: You meant well.
[00:02] Meghan: as for Pat and I's argument, it's the second time he has offered me my "freedom" if I really wanted it. I don't like offers like that
[00:02] Andrew: What, he said "if you don't like it, leave?"
[00:07] Meghan: and he didn't say 'this is the way it is, if you don't like it leave," he isn't at all like that
[00:07] Andrew: Well, I was mostly being concise. Either way, I'm not sure it's a fair or kind offer to make, but I don't know the details.
[00:08] Meghan: "Well if you want your freedom, it is yours if yous hould want it." I said I didn't want it,
[00:08] Andrew: Really, he needn't tell you that sort of thing.
[00:09] Meghan: he said that "you give that impression on some level." His basic mesage is 'I love you very much, and want to be with you always, but you certainly aren't my prisoner, and you may leave if you really want to'
[00:11] Andrew: Which should be understood. But... -shrugs-
[00:11] Meghan: he has never said those exact words, but that was the general message
[00:11] Andrew: I've said my part previously.
[00:12] Meghan: I also know him well enough to know it is said with a heartbroken tone. I will admit it wasn't what i wanted to hear, and said so. I want to talk to him, but I really don't know what to say. I texted him "Please don't go to sleep upset" the phone says it was delivered, but he didn't reply
[00:13] Andrew: Well, you still think you're in the wrong, ne?
[00:14] Meghan: only in that I didn't talk to him sooner. I just feel so awlful because our conversation had been really going okay. He had been handling it all very well, being quite helpful. telling me it was okay, he wasn't upset, i was fine and all. then I brought up the second thing, then he was upset. the thing that I hadn't told him because I didn't really think it would be that bid of a deal (part wasn't, but part was)
[00:14] Andrew: I still dispute that, but... -shrugs- Don't know what else to say, though there's plenty I think could be said.
[00:15] Meghan: such as?
[00:16] Andrew: -shrugs- "I've seen this before,"? In general if not specific. That sort of thing.
[00:16] Meghan: what do you mean you've seen it before?
[00:19] Andrew: Well, I can't say much for content, but... I've seen it before because this is the way inexperienced relationships go. That's not to say it's broken, but it's the way things are.
[00:20] Meghan: maybe,
[00:20] Andrew: Mmm?
[00:20] Meghan: maybe that's just the way they go sometimes.
[00:21] Andrew: -smirk- I would say 'always' rather than 'sometimes,' but...
[00:21] Andrew: Like I said, i'm not saying anything on content because I don't know what it is; and I needn't, really.
[00:21] Meghan: I will say it wasn't a little thing, and he is rather hurt and upset about it all. It also really doesn't help that we are so far away from eachother
[00:21] Andrew: Aye. Distance is hard. Nothing makes distance easier.
[00:21] Meghan: no. and this is making it a lot harder I really hope this doesn't taint our relationship
[00:21] Andrew: In my experience, it won't. It's indicative of a problem -- that things were bothering you is a problem -- but that doesn't mean it's broken. Arguments are good for relationships. Healthy.
[00:22] Meghan: and there isn't anyway I will get to see him for a nother couple weeks (making it a month) if things don't improve, I'm not sure he will want to come
[00:23] Andrew: This may be.
[00:23] Meghan: We've had them before, though often I'm the one upset, not him. This is only the second time I've actually had him upset with me. but i think this time it's more hurt than upset
[00:24] Andrew: More often than not, in all cases, it's more hurt than upset.
[00:24] Meghan: well, the first he was more upset than hurt, but anyways
[00:25] Andrew: Well, I wouldn't know. -smiles- Still... I really think he shouldn't expect some of what he might.
[00:25] Meghan: I don't know
[00:25] Andrew: It's my experience that often we put those we adore on a pedestal, and that's not healthy for a relationship.
[00:26] Meghan: perhaps not
[00:26] Andrew: No perhaps. It's never good, because people are flawed. We're all human. You can't really know someone if you don't allow them their faults.
[00:26] Meghan: of course. you know what I meant
[00:26] Andrew: I try not to deal in "what I meants" -smile-
[00:27] Meghan: (he got back on, ) maybe he will talk to me
[00:27] Andrew: You talk to him.
[00:27] Meghan: He said he doesn't want to talk to me right now, but will in time
[00:28] Andrew: He's upset; that's fair. Don't be sad, Meghan.
[00:28] Meghan: you read my mind
[00:28] Andrew: -smiles-
[00:28] Meghan: but then, i guess that's pretty easy to do right now.
[00:29] Andrew: Psssh. Let me pretend I'm skilled in social interactions.
[00:29] Meghan: *laughs*
[00:28] Meghan: I am very sad right now. I feel so very bad
[00:29] Andrew: Don't be, Meghan. It'll be Ok.
[00:29] Meghan: but I am, this all came about because I didn't want to hurt him
[00:29] Andrew: And that's a noble aim.
[00:29] Meghan: but I couldn't avoid that, and i made it worse
[00:29] Andrew: This is a lesson which must be learned. That doesn't mean you did anything wrong.
[00:29] Meghan: I guess so, but I knew I should have said something to him earlier, but I didn't. that's why I'm upset with myself. because I knew better
[00:30] Andrew: Did we ever estabish a "Why" to that hesitation?
[00:30] Meghan: it was because of my weakness. I wasn't able to bring myself to talk to him about it
[00:31] Andrew: Not wanting to hurt people isn't a weakness.. Not knowing that you can't prevent certain pain is an ignorance, but I wouldn't say it's a weakness in you.
[00:31] Meghan: but I didn't because I didn't want to deal with it, I didn't want to face it
[00:31] Andrew: Were you afraid you'd get hurt?
[00:32] Meghan: I was afraid that he would get hurt. It also didn't help that my mom was out of the country
[00:32] Andrew: Aye.
[00:32] Meghan: I wasn't able to talk to her about any of it
[00:32] Andrew: Bad circumstances, that.
[00:33] Meghan: I wanted to talk to her before she left, but everything was so busy, I didn't want to bother her. then things seemed to get better for a little while (I told Pat a little of what was bothering me, just general things though). then it got bad again when it all came back to mind because I was telling her all about everything. (well almost everything, anways)
[00:34] Andrew: Her? Your mom?
[00:35] Meghan: yeah
[00:35] Andrew: OK.
[00:34] Meghan: Pat just got off. After Pat said he didn't want to talk to me right now, I remided him that I love him very much and that whole bit, he never replied. *sigh*
[00:36] Andrew: Don't worry about it, Meghan.. Worrying will never serve you any good.
[00:37] Meghan: He has been hurt so much by others, has alway needed aproval from those close to him (I think mainly because he doesn't get enough of it from home), i was the only one he could really coun't on, and now I too have betrayed the trust and security he had in me. I feel so awful
[00:38] Andrew: I repeat myself: you shouldn't. I can't find an encouraging way to say "His disappointment is a matter on he can resolve," but that's the way it is.
[00:38] Meghan: If you knew that you did that to someone you cared very deeply for, wouldn't you feel bad too?
[00:39] Andrew: That's not a simple question to answer. Pain and suffering are not always the evils they're made out to be.
[00:40] Meghan: but I feel like (I know that I have) betrayed that safety he had in me
[00:40] Andrew: I don't know that you've betrayed anything, and certainly not by a small hesitation to speak.
[00:40] Meghan: I've betrayed that because i hurt him. I didn't mean to, but that's what happened
[00:41] Andrew: You're blaming yourself foe something you have no control over.
[00:41] Meghan: It's going to take a long time to build that up again, for him to feel safe with me once more
[00:41] Andrew: For your sake, I hope not. Arguably for his sake, too; it would make him a better person.
[00:42] Meghan: I can only imagine if he had to tell me what I said to him. After all the pain he went through, to finally think he was safe from all of it, only to have that safty robed from him, it's heart wrenching
[00:42] Andrew: Meghan, you know that I've been hurt a lot, right?
[00:43] Meghan: yes, I know you've been hurt alot too (though, were you in practically in the hospital over it?)
[00:43] Andrew: Do you know that I would change none of it? I've learned more about myself, and about people, and lessons I could not learn otherwise, through that hurt.
[00:44] Meghan: *sigh* that's good to hear at least
[00:44] Andrew: To have spared me any of that pain, as kind as it might have seemed at the time, would have left me a lesser man. Your job is not to spare him pain. Not to say you should inflict it on him, but "life is pain, Highness."
[00:45] Meghan: but to be the cause of someone's pain, someone I love so dearly, someone I wanted to avoid hurting as much as possible, to know that I only made it worse, that's really hard to face
[00:46] Andrew: I can't predict the future and say you've done him a kindness, though experience might tell me you have. But you can't predict the future and say no good has come of this. If this pain were the one to free him from his demons, would you still wish you'd avoided it?
[00:47] Meghan: no
[00:47] Andrew: You can only do what you feel to be right, and I believe you did. That it had consequences you weren't expecting and don't like... -shrugs- That's life.
[00:48] Meghan: I guess. it's just hard to face the fact that I knew I should have said something before now. but I didn't
[00:48] Andrew: 'Knew' is a funny word to use. I don't think you 'knew'.
[00:48] Meghan: maybe not
[00:48] Andrew: That's the point; you didn't think it was right to say your bit then. You made a choice. It's done. No use in worrying about what might have been.
[00:49] Meghan: "Patrick" (3:48:51 AM): I would call you but I suppose you are chatting with someone (Andrew?) about me and I wouldn't want to interrupt.
[00:49] Andrew: -smirk- "Don't be an idiot, Patrick. I want to talk to you."
[00:50] Meghan: *smiles*
And so she did.
Comments appreciated.
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no subject
Date: 2006-05-29 02:46 pm (UTC)Blah. Real relationships, IMO, have to get over this stage very quickly or they don't last at all. She sounds like she has real confrontation issues which sounds like they may be being exascerbated by his insecurities. Both of which just based on the little I gleaned from the conversation are real relationship-problems there.
I don't envy your position and I'm not sure if I have any recommendations for you as far as what to do with this. Being The Friend to the female here during their relationship gives you serious stigma and can honestly be just as damaging to you as far as the possibility of being there to 'pick up the pieces' if/when it does fall apart. Given Patrick's insecurities it also obviously creates an issue for their relationship as well, as he obviously can't rely on the strength of their relationship at all without hounding at the edges with guilt and reprimand.
I guess what I do is be there for her if she approaches you. The advice you gave wasn't bad although I could see some non-objectivity (to be expected of course). However, I'd try to stay out of it and not approach her so as not to be seen as an instigator or hovering around the edges.
Um... no idea if any of this was what you were looking for when you asked for comments, but I was feeling a bit advisory today. :) Hope I wasn't too in-your-face about it.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-29 04:48 pm (UTC)I'm not entirely objective. I don't like him, and not completely for entirely-valid reasons. I've talked with her already, and I've told her I don't think he's right for her ("I've said my part previously."), but I can't make her break up with him.
I'm not sure, though, what position I hold that you don't envy. I'm not sure what harm you expect to come to be and, depending n how you define it, I'm not even sure I care to "pick up the pieces."
-shrugs- Regardless, the commentary is appreciated.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-29 05:06 pm (UTC)If I misunderstood any of that, then it's not realy an issue and I'm glad for it!
no subject
Date: 2006-05-29 05:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-29 04:53 pm (UTC)Oh, and yes. That's part of the problem here. Neither he nor she have ever had a Relationship before; worse, his only experience seems to have been an unrequited crush which caused him to be tormented. Relationship-wise, they're both immature, and so yes, they're hitting all the potholes most of us found in highschool. Which in part is why I don't really expect her to listen to my advice.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-30 12:30 am (UTC)