Not Pikachu, please don't sue.
Feb. 3rd, 2003 08:46 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jackofallgeeksSo, yes. I have something of depth to say. Not really. I'm rather upset (not sadded, but angry -- not at anyone in particular, but just things generally). I can always tell when people are losing an argument because they start to make it personal. I hope I'm being objective, but the nature of the topic is a personal one.
I don't mean to attack anyone, particularly those who feel this is most directed at them. It's more an expression of me than an attack on you. Even with that being said, I donno that I'll make many friends with saying this:
Leslie wrote just now on how Christians are generally assumed to be anti-homosexual. Like someone's not even human if they're gay. -deep breath- Sorry, still getting upset here. The fact of the matter is it's about.... It's not wethere or.... Skrew it, I'm just going to post what I commented there. See Her Post for any background.
We all know I could say a lot on this subject -- and I fear I will do just that. However, I must start by collecting myself. You see, whenever this comes up, I can't help but become upset. Firstly because it seems quite apparent to me that those what attack the Faith often (to borrow a phrase) don't, "hate the Church, but hate what they think the Church is." As you said, it seems that being Christian (and for my case Catholic) and not 'homophobic' as you've chosen to put it doesn't fit for some reason. As though the whole fucking Catholic church is a ignorant gathering of close-minded bigots, and other similarly ridiculous crap.
-ahem- Excuse me. But that's another thing -- what the HELL is 'open-minded' supposed to mean (not to single you out, Riverbank)? I mean, honestly, it seems that one is only 'open-minded' if they agree with the (political implications unintended) liberal school of thought. Well, fuck that. What's open-minded if the only side you're 'allowed' to choose is THAT one? IE, am I close-minded by definition because I think X, Y, and Z are wrong? There's just as many close-minded people on either side of the fence.
-deep breath- We can tell I'm not doing so well on the 'collecting myself' part, but I think I'm through that. Anyways, if I've said anything that's less than clear, lemme know. That goes for this whole post.
That all being said -- the Bible. I have faith in the Bible, to an extent. My reasoning for this is theological, and as such I don't expect much of anyone to buy it, but bear with me. The first suppositions you must allow me are that Jesus was God (and as such, he founded a religion himself) and that God takes part in the world. That being given, it makes sense he'd watch over his church (which I believe I have evidence to support). THAT being said, you would think he'd have thought to watch over this book we're all so fond of, as it IS a key part of His church. Which means he would strive to see that the Translators, for the most part, got things right. And generally, I think we can agree that regardless of translation, the bible varies little between editions. I believe that the books are NOT from-the-mouth-of-God, but that they WERE inspired by him (I'm sure anyone here with literary inclinations understands inspiration) and while the words and structure were men's, the MEANING was Gods.
Or something like that. I'm far from a Biblical scholar, but I like to think I know SOMETHING about my own faith. I DID think for myself when I chose it, who the fuck cares if I chose the same one I was fucking born with? (Again, I don't mean to single you out, Riverbank.)
I have a point to make on that whole 'damned from birth' thing, but again, you have to know where I'm coming from.
I believe I am another Straight Christian (specifically Catholic) who's not a 'homophobe.' In fact, some of me DEAREST friends are gay, and we know of at least one time when I went so far as to flirt with a gay guy -- -shrugs- No harm done, and he had a nice night. ^_~ I hold to one standard, regardless of what your sexual preference is (arguable within reason, but...) and that is if you're not married, you don't have sex. Period. If you sleep with your girlfriend, you're just as damned as the gay couple down the hall going at it. You don't DO that, and while I won't get into it all, that's the standard. Do I make any sense? Do you follow where I'm going with this?
That being said, if a gay guy is 'damned from birth,' so am I. Lord KNOWS I like girls, and that entails a lot more than I think some here care to acknowledge sometimes. We ALL have the same base desires, the key to being HUMAN is overcoming that. We're not beasts who go around acting on our base desires, we have a will and an intellect and the ABILITY to over come it. It's one of the things about our society that ticks me off, the whole 'if it feels good, it must be' and, 'if it doesn't hurt anyone, it's OK.' But I think I've gotten off-course, so I'll shut up.
I don't mean to attack anyone, particularly those who feel this is most directed at them. It's more an expression of me than an attack on you. Even with that being said, I donno that I'll make many friends with saying this:
Leslie wrote just now on how Christians are generally assumed to be anti-homosexual. Like someone's not even human if they're gay. -deep breath- Sorry, still getting upset here. The fact of the matter is it's about.... It's not wethere or.... Skrew it, I'm just going to post what I commented there. See Her Post for any background.
We all know I could say a lot on this subject -- and I fear I will do just that. However, I must start by collecting myself. You see, whenever this comes up, I can't help but become upset. Firstly because it seems quite apparent to me that those what attack the Faith often (to borrow a phrase) don't, "hate the Church, but hate what they think the Church is." As you said, it seems that being Christian (and for my case Catholic) and not 'homophobic' as you've chosen to put it doesn't fit for some reason. As though the whole fucking Catholic church is a ignorant gathering of close-minded bigots, and other similarly ridiculous crap.
-ahem- Excuse me. But that's another thing -- what the HELL is 'open-minded' supposed to mean (not to single you out, Riverbank)? I mean, honestly, it seems that one is only 'open-minded' if they agree with the (political implications unintended) liberal school of thought. Well, fuck that. What's open-minded if the only side you're 'allowed' to choose is THAT one? IE, am I close-minded by definition because I think X, Y, and Z are wrong? There's just as many close-minded people on either side of the fence.
-deep breath- We can tell I'm not doing so well on the 'collecting myself' part, but I think I'm through that. Anyways, if I've said anything that's less than clear, lemme know. That goes for this whole post.
That all being said -- the Bible. I have faith in the Bible, to an extent. My reasoning for this is theological, and as such I don't expect much of anyone to buy it, but bear with me. The first suppositions you must allow me are that Jesus was God (and as such, he founded a religion himself) and that God takes part in the world. That being given, it makes sense he'd watch over his church (which I believe I have evidence to support). THAT being said, you would think he'd have thought to watch over this book we're all so fond of, as it IS a key part of His church. Which means he would strive to see that the Translators, for the most part, got things right. And generally, I think we can agree that regardless of translation, the bible varies little between editions. I believe that the books are NOT from-the-mouth-of-God, but that they WERE inspired by him (I'm sure anyone here with literary inclinations understands inspiration) and while the words and structure were men's, the MEANING was Gods.
Or something like that. I'm far from a Biblical scholar, but I like to think I know SOMETHING about my own faith. I DID think for myself when I chose it, who the fuck cares if I chose the same one I was fucking born with? (Again, I don't mean to single you out, Riverbank.)
I have a point to make on that whole 'damned from birth' thing, but again, you have to know where I'm coming from.
I believe I am another Straight Christian (specifically Catholic) who's not a 'homophobe.' In fact, some of me DEAREST friends are gay, and we know of at least one time when I went so far as to flirt with a gay guy -- -shrugs- No harm done, and he had a nice night. ^_~ I hold to one standard, regardless of what your sexual preference is (arguable within reason, but...) and that is if you're not married, you don't have sex. Period. If you sleep with your girlfriend, you're just as damned as the gay couple down the hall going at it. You don't DO that, and while I won't get into it all, that's the standard. Do I make any sense? Do you follow where I'm going with this?
That being said, if a gay guy is 'damned from birth,' so am I. Lord KNOWS I like girls, and that entails a lot more than I think some here care to acknowledge sometimes. We ALL have the same base desires, the key to being HUMAN is overcoming that. We're not beasts who go around acting on our base desires, we have a will and an intellect and the ABILITY to over come it. It's one of the things about our society that ticks me off, the whole 'if it feels good, it must be' and, 'if it doesn't hurt anyone, it's OK.' But I think I've gotten off-course, so I'll shut up.
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no subject
Date: 2003-02-04 12:55 am (UTC)my knowledge of the bible is faded and i read for reference once in a while. the christian part of the conversation i could get into but there is so much distane coming from my childhood experiences in my lutheran family...well, it's all very personal, you wouldn't want to hear it.
it's exciting to hear someone so passionate about thier beliefs cause as you said many people just go along with the majority walking on eggshells to avoid offending anyone.
no subject
Date: 2003-02-04 06:49 am (UTC)Like I said, I wasn't targeting you, Riverbank. There's just a lot of double standards and hypocrisy floating around... There have been several occasions when it seems I'm close-minded just because I don't agree with X, or I'm a fool because of Y or something. Like it isn't a choice if the choice is 'no,' y'know? This wasn't aimed at either you or Leslie, I guess I just kinda exploded. ^_^;;
it's exciting to hear someone so passionate about thier beliefs cause as you said many people just go along with the majority walking on eggshells to avoid offending anyone.
-smiles- I'm glad you think so. My faith is a very big part of me, and I've put a lot of effort into understanding what the Catholic Church teaches and why. I'll be the first one to say that A LOT of Catholics (and perhaps christians in general), especially in America, are such in name only, and don't really know their faith. I decided years ago that I didn't want to be one of that group.
And I'm also not fond of walking on eggshells for the sake of making everyone 'happy.' I don't think it really works, actually. I'm not fond of upsetting people, least of all those close to me, either, but...